Kitty Surprise (Attack)

Great write-up. Some nice synergies in there which I'll be trying out later this weekend.

There's one thing I can't get my head around though: How does Quick Shift help with defending without exhausting? Solid simply states that Shadowcat cannot take damage while defending, so you would need to exhaust to defend. I don't see how Quick Shift helps with readying after the first defense. Or is the fact that you use a defense card enough to substitute 'defending'?

@Peroxda Yes, playing an event with the defense tag counts as defending an attack :)

I havent played Kitty Pride, yet but I am really looking forward to. This deck looks amazing and can't wait to give it a go :) Her phasing ability looks really powerful and gives some nice synergies

@LeahLorenna Thanks for the clarification. I should really read up on that defense section in the last RRG.

I was wondering what your thoughts were regarding using Emergency with Kitty Pride? I haven't had a chance to play this yet, but was thinking that using Emergency as a 0-cost card to trigger her "no damage when defending" would be a good way to stay upright. It would situationally replace needing to use Ready to Rumble, but at half the cost.

The combo I'm thinking of would be to start the villain turn in phased form -> villain attacks -> play Emergency to take no damage -> forced flip to solid -> play cards on your turn (including surprise attack) -> basic attack gets you back to phased again

Curious what you think?

And of course when I say Emergency, I really mean Warning.

facepalm

@teamcanadahockey2002 I thought that Warning was still errata’d and they had removed (defense) with the last RRG. Did they reverse that? If so, I would definitely try it. Also, it would actually make that card playable, so I’m all for it.

@Brian-V I had to go back through all the rules again to figure this one out. So as I understand, Warning has the Defense trait at the top, but the errata taking away the Interrupt (defense) means you can't use it to defend?

After the new ruling on Mutant Protectors, I think I'm even more confused again on how this works, but I agree now that this isn't going to work the way I want it to. Hopefully they update a v1.5 to clarify defending again.

So Quick Shift will always end with you in solid form right? Since it would trigger the forced response on the phased form.

@teamcanadahockey2002 that's correct. it was so close to greatness!

@Scotobot you can play it while in solid form and choose to swap to phased if you wish

So I'm getting very confused about the forced response. For example: I use quickshift to change from solid to phased. I am now considered to have defended. Which of the following happens:

I stay phased and take no damage.

I turn to phased, take no damage and then am forced to flip back to solid.

I guess I am confused by when I am considered to have "defended". It is prior to the attack resolution (when you resolve a defence card or exhaust to basic defend) or is it after the attack has ended?

As the ruling on powerful punch seems make it that you have "defended" after the card has been resolved. But on quick strike the card flips your form as part of its resolution. So does that not mean that it flips your form, finishes resolution, then you are considered to have defended, then the forced response?!??

A big thanks to anyone who can help!

@j0n5150 when you play Quick Shift, since it is a defense card that only can be played during an attack, it makes you the defender of that attack and will flip your upgrade after the attack has resolved. you also don't need to exhaust normally to defend the attack (and take no damage)

@j0n5150 as for Powerful punch, its an interrupt for when the attack initiates so I believe the attack portion of powerful punch happens before the villain attack. Because you attacked you would switch to phased. It also has the defense trait so you'd defend against the villain attack, taking no damage. Now that you've defended you'd swap back to solid. With protection you could then theoretically counter punch to flip back to phased to have another "free" defense.

@dr00 Just to clarify: I play quick shift in solid, I use the effect of the card to become phased, I count as defending, I take zero damage, I have now defended, the forced response flips me back to solid. So essentially I start and end in solid form?

@ryndar I think the hall of heroes ruling indicates that the attack and defence of powerful punch are simultaneously happening, leading to only flipping once and staying phased?

I think this all needs clarification from ffg tbh.

@j0n5150 there are 2 scenarios that can happen during the villain phase:

1st

• you are in Solid and play Quick Shift. The card states that you switch to phased. Since this is an interrupt the attack hasnt hit you, yet. So now you are in Phased AND are defending due to Quick Shift being a defense event. Now Phased is a response and happens after the attack that you are defending. That means you are preventing the damage and will flip back to Solid

2nd

• you are already in Phased and play Quick Shift and get to draw 2 cards instead while also defending, preventing the damage and swap to Solid afterwards :)

In both scenarios you wont have to exhaust yourself in order to prevent the damage if you play Quick Shift :)

I hope this clears it up ^^

~L~

@j0n5150 so for powerful punch I think the ruling was to avoid you flipping back before the actual attack. But now that your defending after the initial flip, the rest of the attack should be carried out. Now that the attack is done you are considered to have "defended" which the force response should flip you.

Sadly if your taking the other interpretation then the previous ruling, related to vision and shadow cat, would screw this all up. Because the interrupt is when the attack initiated it falls under the crossbones machine gun timing. That means your are not considered defending so you would need to then also use another defense card or exhaust to defend. That makes the card almost useless and you should use preemptive strike instead, unless your trying to kill minions before they attack. It also means the defense trait is useless except for creating resources for defense cards.

@LeahLorenna Thanks, this is super helpful! I completely missed the distinction between interrupt and response.

@ryndar I can see the point you are making. It does make me wonder about what the Devs intended the interaction to be. I think they would do well to do quick video walkthroughs of card interactions.

You are very welcome :) @j0n5150

in case Powerful Punch is still unclear:

Powerful Punch has the same timing sequence. It's an interrupt which is an attack and defense. That means if you are in Solid you can trigger the swap to Phased after you attack for 4 damage. Then you prevent the damage from the incoming attack (because you are defending thx to Powerful Punch) and after that attack resolves you have successfully defendend and have to switch from Phased back to Solid without exhausting :)

And these interactions are what make Kitty Pride so powerful ^^

@LeahLorenna have you read the ruling for vision and shadow cat related to crossbone's machine gun? Based on their response that the interrupt happens before the attack it doesn't count as defending. Hence why intangible vision could side step the damage, because he isn't defending at that timing.

With that in mind the interrupt for powerful punch is the exact same and the ruling that the attack and defense is at the same timing and not one after the other would make it so your not defending as it's all happening before the attack. Because Alex explicitly says neither of them would be defending in that case. You'd still switch from solid to phased but would need to use something else to trigger defending.

Yes myself and I think everyone else wants powerful punch to be amazing for shadow cat but their response so that vision isn't screwed makes it so that powerful punch isn't good for shadow cat. Which sucks. Ill still play it counting as attacking and defending for now but I'm also playing it so vision can't side step the interrupt timing to be consistent.

@ryndar

I think there is a difference here:

Crossbones machine gun is the effect you interrupt in case 1. Which isn't an attack. Hence why you are not defending.

The villain attacking is what powerful punch interrupts. Which is an attack. Hence why you are.

I may be wrong. But it definitely needs proper clarification from ffg.

Exactly. Crossbones' Machine Gun is a force interrupt that triggers during the activation and the damage happens before the actual attack. Also this is indirect damage which cannot be defended! That's a completely different scenario we are talking about :D Also forced interrupts and forced response always trigger before "normal" interrupts / respsones. So Crossbones' Machine Gun would trigger first, then comes the attack, then you play Powerful Punch and go through as explained above.

@LeahLorenna I think your missing the point. They said using a defense card on the machine gun doesn't count as defending because it interrupts the attack, therfore happening before the attack. Powerful punch is an interrupt also and its when an attack is initiated. Which is before the machine gun whose interrupt is when crossbone attacks. So if powerful punch interrupts the attack and resolves completely, then the attack hasn't started so your not defending as there is no attack yet by the time powerful punch is resolved. Because it's outside of the attack your not using a defense card during the attack so you are not defending, based on that ruling you don't get the "free" defense on powerful punch.

The point isn't interrupting the machine gun. It's about the timing. So any other villain initiates attacking you. If you powerful punch, your interrupting that trigger so the card occurs before the attack initiates so your not in the attack window. Because there is no attack when the card resolves your not defending. Now that powerful punch is resolved you continue with what it interrupted, meaning now the attack starts. Does that make sense?

As someone on reddit posted:

"Here is the order of operations...

• Crossbones initiates an attack unless stunned

• Remove an ammo counter

• Discard the top card of the encounter deck and deal indirect damage equal to the number of boost counters among characters that player controls. If damage would defeat an ally, only the amount of damage that would defeat the ally can be dealt. Additional damage requires another target. (Note: Star abilities do not trigger because this is not a boost)

• Deal a boost card face down.

• The hero chooses to defend or have an ally defend.

• Resolve the boost and deal damage equal to the boost icons plus base attack ignoring toughness because of pierce ability.

• Subtract defense if attack was defended."

"the hero choses to defend" is where you would play Powerful Punch and interrupt his actual attack. Since again, Crossbones' Machine Gun is a seperate instance of damage or trigger event that happens before the attack. That's why you are still able to play as discribed. You can't however defend against Crossbones' Machine Gun since again this is indirect damage and not a direct attack :)

I hope that clears everything up ^^

~L~

@ryndar It makes me wonder why they have given it the defence trait then. Maybe we are suggesting the intended interaction and ffg need to be clear about the ruling on defending non attacks. I read the rule on machine gun as not being a defence because machine gun interupt is not an attack. Less so due to timing.

But I am pretty sure ffg will clear it up for us.

"If you powerful punch, your interrupting that trigger so the card occurs before the attack initiates so your not in the attack window. Because there is no attack when the card resolves your not defending."

Who says that you are not still defending after you dealt the damage from Powerful Punch? By that logic a lot of Defense events wouldnt count as defending an attack because they would all resolve before the attack started like Preemptive Strike or Defiance for example. And that is just not true. You are still defending for the remaining attack after your card resolves.

@j0n5150 exactly, giving it the defense trait would absolutely make no sense at all if it doesnt count as defending for the rest of the activation. I mean sure, people at FFG can make mistakes. But I am 100% sure that's not what they inteded because that's not how the other cards work.

@LeahLorenna So Preemptive Strike and Defiance both happen during the attack as their interrupts are when the boost card is revealed or to be revealed. Most other defense cards are responses from when your hero defends, damage is done, etc and those are all instead of the attack window also.

The only other instance of this timing is Grasping Tendrils and I'm pretty sure it only works correctly because the interrupt is when the villain initiates the attack. For crossbone you would stop him from attacking and because this interrupt occurs before Crossbones' Machine Gun the forced interrupt wouldn't occur either even though forced beats non-forced and thats only because the initiates attack is before attacks. For Ultron it would prevent a drone from being put into play.

"Crossbones’ Machine Gun is interesting because it has an Interrupt ability which means it must resolve before its trigger, Crossbones attacking. By that logic, it can be treated as damage from a non-attack, for which you COULD use Side Step in response to it while in Vision’s Intangible form, because you are not making “a defense.” (This would be different if the ability wasn’t an Interrupt, or if it instead boosted Crossbones’ attack, because a Defense event played during an attack is by definition “a defense”, and an Intangible Vision cannot defend.)"

^ This is the actual text that I think becomes relevant for this. Its saying the interrupt for the machine gun happens prior to the attack so its not an attack. Because of that Powerful Punch would also completely resolve before the attack initiates so your outside of an attack, going along with their "this logic makes it a non-attack" you'd have used the card outside of an attack and therefore not be "making a defense."

As I said before I think that the intent is that powerful punch be amazing for shadow cat (features her art) and should do damage, shift from solid to phase, be counted as defending, therefore taking no damage and switch back to solid after the attack is done. BUT the point is that their rulings go against this and its dumb and therefore I'm inserting everyone's favorite nick fury meme.

@ryndar I feel like both answers have merit at this point. Would be great to get a straight answer from ffg. I feel shadow cat is going to be really prone to confusing interactions.

I'm probably going to hold off from using her in protection for now and try aggression like the list above. Shame, I really want to find protection decks I like lol

@ryndar I see what you mean. I am not an expert on the ruling, but are we sure that the initiation of an attack is not part of the attack itself? Stating that it happens when the enemy initiates the attack just means that you would deal the 4 damage before (for example) crossbones machine gun. While you cant defend against that instance, are we sure the defense isnt still active for the remainder of the activation? Even if powerful punch already resolved it would still seem off if it wouldnt be the case. But I guess thats what you guys want to have clarification on. So if FFG does not rule in our favor the defense trait would only make us the new target (in case we arent already) but we still would have to exhaust our hero in order to prevent the damage from the attack

@LeahLorenna that's the part of the ruling I'm not a fan of. They are stating that Crossbones' Machine Gun interrupt is not part of the attack so any other cards in that same timing wouldn't be a part of the attack either. The line "This would be different if the ability wasn’t an Interrupt" makes it so in my mind their goal was to set it outside of attacking as the attack hasn't started. Honestly it feels like they did this just for intangible vision and it mucks up this one card, mostly because Grasping Tendrils working outside the attack makes sense.

If the machine gun isn't part of the attack then Powerful Punch wouldn't be part of the attack either and if it's not part of an attack then you cant be considered defending.

Still going to use it the other way as I really believe that's the intention and their wording about the attack and defense of Powerful Punch being simultanrous was just so you wouldn't flip flop before the attack actually happened.

I think it still should be different because first of all the Crossbones' Machine Gun is a card thats "played" or activated by the villain. 2nd the damage thats been dealt here is indirect damage which alone has its own ruling and can never be defended against. So it would be really hard to say its part of the attack. Ofc it has to be something thats happening apart but not necessariliy outside of the attack. And just because this interrupt effect isnt part of the attack which again can have plenty of different reasons doesnt have anything to do with how long the defense condition lasts. Because theoretically I feel that you could also argue then that Powerful Punch diesnt even make u the new target since its not part of the attack and since you techically didnt defend against that attack you wont becomming the new target.

Me personally I think as soons as the villain activates and / or initiates an attack I have several trigger where I can defend and once I decided to defend it will last till the end of the activation. Thats what would make sense and is logical. Since Crossbones' Machine Gun doesnt enhance the villains attack with a +ATK but instead it is its own mini attack of sorts doesnt make it a part of ihe villains attack but its still part of the activation. Also again this is indirect damage we are talking about here.. And with Powerful Punch i would decide before that i wanna defend than a damage source accurs which i cant do anything about and then the actual attack is happening. If I attack the villain during its activation and they'd have retaliation that also wouldnt be part of the attack but still happens during the activation.

I dont really get why ppl would assune just because they are both interrupts and are happening happening before the villain actually attacks that its defense doesnt count torwards the attack. Seems like a stretchbto me tbh. Because i am 100% sure machine gun isnt part if the attack because of the indirect damage. Not because its happening before the attack.

@LeahLorenna indirect damage has nothing to do with it being outside of an attack. You can defend against sandman and starshark and reduce their indirect damage.

Also I think machine gun not being part of the attack means that it happens before dealing a face down boost card. And back then this was the earliest when you could intervene with either cards like Preemptive Strike or by exhausting. And by ruling that machine gun not being part of the attack means that the OG target of the activation would always have to deal with the machine gun. Now with Powerful Punch we can intervene before that happens. This is the part where I was mistaken since I assumed the forced interrupt would occur before but you are right that powerful punch interrupts right at the initiation and thus should occur before the machine gun making us the new target of the machine gun and everything that follows. And we are only becoming the new target because we are indeed defending. If we are not defending then we should be the target of the attack. And if we are not defending then it wouldnt make any sense for the card to have the defense trait. I think it has the defense trait so you cant just get 4 damage in and let the OG target deal with the attack. If you decide to play this card and deal 4 damage then you also have to live with the consequences that you are now defending.

I think a few people in the comments here are missing the fact that the Response on Phased/Solid is just that - a Response. Not a Forced Response. Flipping forms is OPTIONAL after a defense or attack.

@Telcontar only on Solid form is optional. In Phased is forced.

This deck is so good! 2 cards away from what I’ve been running with Shadowcat-A, -1 Drop Kick and -1 Shadow and Steel for proxy versions of Forge and Psylocke. So much synergy with Aggression!!

I love Kitty so much, she instantly became my new favourite char. Especially your Deck aces every situation. I just took out "Shadow and Steel", bc I drew it dead every single game.

@journeyman2 @Spider-Beelz

You can definitely take out Shadow and Steel, I usually try to add Team Up cards when I can purely because I enjoy them for theme.

It does offer you a way to flip in the villain phase before the villain can attack, and you can help pay for it with Martial Prowess, but it's easily a card you can cut and the reason I made it a 41 card deck. I probably should have mentioned that in the write-up.

Forge and Psylocke will definitely replace cards! Forge seems like an auto-include for any X-Men deck and Psylocke giving confuse to Aggression! Wow, excited for both cards.

Thanks for the comments.

Started messing around with Kitty tonight myself. Found that Wolverine was a priority ally, but mostly because he could thwart for 1 indefinitely, which was pretty valuable in true solo. The piercing was also nice, but I found I was saving the attack for when needed and just using him to maintain threat until I found Airwalk

Just a thought...

@teamcanadahockey2002. Totally agree. That’s exactly how I use him. A free 1 thwart and pierce on hand is super strong, especially with all the Tough in MG. I feel like he's among the best allies in the game.

Note that to use the Solid resource for Surprise Attack, you have to be flipping from Phased to Solid- it doesn't work the other direction. It does open up some interesting lines where you absorb the villain's attack with Phased, possibly because you defended with Quick Shift, then as the attack ends you become Solid, allowing you to Surprise Attack (paid for with Solid) to flip back to Phased to tank a minion attack or to block for another player.

@Brian-V I missed that this was 41 cards, I thought maybe the db was counting Solid like it used to for Spectrum's forms! I really like Shadow and Steel in multiplayer to yank attacks from Colossus for sure!